Inappropriate behavior from staff member Raven on Discord (archived by _raven.:))

[moonstar]

In-game name: .EA#Moonstar
Date of incident: July 14 2021
Server: Discord server "https://discord.gg/eTHSdgh"
Incident:
After Nuestra was banned from the Discord server a few guests on there started asking questions about the ban reason. They were swiftly told not to discuss the reason of the ban by Raven. He claims that according to the rules discussing bans is NOT allowed. These guests were simply stating their opinions, I cannot see how in this day and age that would not be allowed in a gaming community.

Asking which rule, and why this rule exists was met by threats to get kicked and even worse so, banned. Why would I get banned for asking a staff member why certain rules exist?

Not being allowed to state their opinions some of the guests got annoyed and restated their opinion in a more disrespectful way (not something I agreed with, may I add). This swiftly got them banned, "Anyone else want to move on?" was Raven's threat after banning a guest.

Raven was not taking any criticism for banning a member, people that kept criticizing got banned. I wanted to know why criticizing staff was not allowed, in the end this got me kicked. I joined back, posted a spicy meme and got banned for it. I simply did not want to stay in that discord server with Raven power tripping in it, much like the other guests that got banned.

I would love to give you proof in the form of the conversation between Raven and I but I cannot show you it. The way the Discord server is set up makes it so that ALL MESSAGES FROM BANNED USERS ARE DELETED. This makes it impossible to confirm what was said. Many people were present in the server at the time. Mystik, Emblem, Wolf, Cross (EX TWC Supreme) Nebel to name a few.

Reason of complaint: Raven's mannerisms and handling of being a staff member on the Discord server are awful and toxic. It is making people leave the community because they simply do not want to be lead by somebody this toxic.

Name of person you are complaining about: Raven, supreme staff member on the Discord server.
Have you ever been banned on any TWC server before : ET server: NO Discord: Not before this ban

Thanks for reading, I will be answering any questions that come up!

[Emblem]

One of my messages got deleted without any mention or reason why. I got annoyed because the reply was "I haD no cHoIce" and now i'm banned.

[_raven.:)]

This whole story is a big lie, turning things to your best is somehow the right thing right?
Being a racist, calling me a dictator - comparing me with hitler, is fine right?
Provocations, disrespect, not following rules, not listening to the staff orders to stop this discussion right now, warned not even once, kicked - being so disrespectful to rejoin and make a post about me being a dictator again?

All of your questions has been answered.
I am not in need to give any reason why a rule exists this way! If a decision was made by a staff, it has a reason. And guests are not in the power to discuss or even make any thoughts about WHY DID YOU BAN HIM.
You are with others simply guests! No decisions is your business, especially not a ban by the leading team of TWC.

It is not your right and not the right of other guests to annoy a supreme, after the supreme told you guys several times to stop for good.
You all had enough chances to stop.

---

To mention, the supreme Team is on my side, because they read everything too.
So no need to find excuses or tell things less harsh than they were before!
There are overall proves about this case.

This complain is useless.

[moonstar]

Thank you for replying.

Let me first address the elephant in the room. "Being a racist, calling me a dictator - comparing me with hitler, is fine right?" at NO POINT did I compare you to Adolf Hitler. At no point was I racist. You are calling ME a racist even though I at no point was, I would like you to apologize for calling me such vile things without merit.

"This whole story is a big lie" No it is not, This conversation did in fact happen, I have several people that will vouch for me. One of them is even a EX TWC Supreme. Had you not deleted ALL of my messages I would have been able to easily prove it. We can clarify it CHECK THE DELETED MESSAGES LOGS.

"And guests are not in the power to discuss or even make any thoughts about WHY DID YOU BAN HIM." Ok so we are never allowed to talk about, have opinions about or criticize staff decisions no matter HOW bad they are? (not saying banning Nuestra was a bad choice at all btw). Do I even need to state how toxic this statement is? He is enforcing this statement in the Discord server, do other TWC Staff a agree with this?

Yes I did call you a dictator, you meet most of the definition. You make choices on your own that nobody is allowed to criticize. If they do, they get removed from the server. Sorry if my opinion of you offends you.

[Cross]

If a decision was made by a staff, it has a reason. And guests are not in the power to discuss or even make any thoughts about WHY DID YOU BAN HIM.

This the thing I just can't agree with. So you can just ban my friend for example, do not say why, and I, as a guest can't even ask or THINK (according to what you said) why did you do it. You are a 'leading team' and you had a reason. B-crap I say.
You are just a man, you get as annoyed and as fed up as all people do, and as all people, you make mistakes.

All people make mistakes, even presidents, queens, kings, prime ministers or a simple, non-important 'leading team' on non-important clan in small game and I, will always call it out if I think what other people done is wrong in my eyes. And what you did in discord today, was in my eyes, a clear mistake.

It might be just how you responded, it might be just how you said it, maybe you wrote it in diffrent meaning we think you did, but I think it's just power tripping from you.

Cross

[Emblem]

I'm actually speechless. "You're not even allowed to think about disagreeing with me/us" is a major red flag regardless of context. If you actually think that then I feel sorry for you.

[Mystik]

Once again, information is scattared all over the place, and no clear picture is provided here. Here is a small recap that I can provide partial screenshots of (BECAUSE SOME MESSAGES ARE MISSING DUE TO RAVEN LEAVING THE "REMOVE MESSAGES" OPTION ENABLED WHEN BANNING).


What happened?

This whole ordeal began when Valkk asked the following question, that to me reads like it was asked with a hint of joke sprinkled on it: "When will come the day TWC have to do the right thing and shut down". A big discussion then followed about TWC, activity declining, the servers being offline for a while, the pandemic, ET dying, FA servers, Nitmod and Jaymod (ND) merging etc. Lots of people chimed in to give their opinions.
Nuestra was back on his "the finns and Nirv killed ND" story, and went on about "Nirv change playstyle after 10 years" and "Never change what is working" whatever that means translated to proper english.

Raven warned in general, that people that are on Discord to only complain about TWC servers etc. are free to leave. Nuestra had a snarky reply to this and got kicked.



After this we had our laughs about Nuestra getting kicked, and Raven pinged everyone with this message:



We continued to make a bit of fun about various things, while the discussion about activity and popularity of TWC and ET continued. I feel like people had some great points about this, that can be read on the Discord server. Of course there were the so called "not so smart" takes on this as well, but this goes for any subject really.

Nuestra then made his useless leaving post on forums that was then deleted since it was useless spam anyways. Nuestra came back asking why he was kicked, and claiming that all he did was tell the truth. He continued to go on about it and got banned by Raven.



After this, people (including me) criticized the ban reasoning (like rasism for example, I still haven't found anything Nuestra said to be racist in any way). This led into a heated argument about criticizing bans, moderation and actioning behind them.





Raven pinned the @everyone ping message, and more heated debate followed. More people joined in to point out that Raven's attitude about this is not that great, and that it shouldn't be disallowed to give opinions about moderation decisions, and then trying to silence the critics.

A few people got banned because nobody was willing to de-escalate the situation, so it just kept going into more provocative and provocative, with many people throwing fuel to the fire. Some people got banned without a proper ban reason attached, and unfortunately Raven had the "delete last 24h of messages" enabled while banning, so the messages will have to be digged up from bot logs to confirm what was or wasn't said by the people that got banned.
THE FOLLOWING SCREENSHOTS ARE MISSING AT LEAST MOON'S AND EMBLEM'S MESSAGES!








Response and points for clarification

This whole story is a big lie, turning things to your best is somehow the right thing right?
Being a racist, calling me a dictator - comparing me with hitler, is fine right?
Provocations, disrespect, not following rules, not listening to the staff orders to stop this discussion right now, warned not even once, kicked - being so disrespectful to rejoin and make a post about me being a dictator again?

All of your questions has been answered.
I am not in need to give any reason why a rule exists this way! If a decision was made by a staff, it has a reason. And guests are not in the power to discuss or even make any thoughts about WHY DID YOU BAN HIM.
You are with others simply guests! No decisions is your business, especially not a ban by the leading team of TWC.

It is not your right and not the right of other guests to annoy a supreme, after the supreme told you guys several times to stop for good.
You all had enough chances to stop.

---

To mention, the supreme Team is on my side, because they read everything too.
So no need to find excuses or tell things less harsh than they were before!
There are overall proves about this case.

This complain is useless.

- Please elaborate, which parts of his post exactly were a lie
- You are making it seem like Moon did the things that you list in this reply, which he DID NOT. You blamed Nuestra (who got kicked and ultimately banned from Discord) for being a racist, I believe because he said (clearly referring to Lanttu and Narko) that the "finns ruined ND". When I don't think he even did this time that you actually did ban him, he has said this in the past, but yesterday only talked about Nirv. I would like you to show exact messages from him that indicated his racism. I am 100% on board with keeping him banned, trust me, but false accusations are not the way.
- Moon didn't say anything racist, he never compared you to Hitler. He did provocate, that's for sure. We'll get to the other points later.
- "And guests are not in the power to discuss or even make any thoughts about WHY DID YOU BAN HIM" - I hope this is just an error in your brain translating from your native thoughts to english, if not - this sounds like you are saying people aren't even allowed to THINK about why admins are doing what they are doing...


Remaining questions

I don't think all questions were answered. I believe what we want to know here is:
- Why are "guests and normal member base" not allowed to give their opinion on moderation decisions, if they believe they are wrongful? Especially bans?
- Do you think it's productive to not address the points of the people criticizing you, and just instead go "if you keep asking I will kick and ban you as well" mode on them?
- Why delete their message history? It could have been used as prove here, and are now harder to dig out from whatever logging chuckie has set up on the bot. (I'm pretty sure there is logging setup on it for logging deleted messages). If this was an accident then no problem, happens.
- Is it really an official TWC rule / guideline that guests and normal members are not allowed to question, or criticize staff decisions or moderation?

[ZonElax]

Hey guys,

before jumping to any conclusions, let me just say that I will try to remain objective. I don't have anything against anybody.

First of all, thank you Moonster for making this thread. We will try to make the best of it and perhaps even learn something from it.

So, I happen to read some of the conversation on Discord, but not all of it. As far as I know it started something in relation of "TWC making a bad decision" followed by a wave of criticism and disagreement. Is that correct? I don't want to point any fingers towards anybody, nor I will search someone to blame.

Yes, Raven made some actions which he thought were best for the given situation. However, not everyone agreed with those actions, and the "drama" (as you guys like to call it) happened. Of course not every decision is a good decision, but Raven did what he did. Like Cross stated, everyone makes mistakes. Let's say that Raven's decisions were wrong, but who are you to question his decisions? Most of the guys present are not and were never even in TWC. I see some of you making useless and provocative posts on a daily basis. You guys are on our TWC Clan discord just to stir "shit", and searching for target to go after. In this case you guys went for Raven.

Please don't tell me you're innocent and that I am supporting Raven's bad decisions. I see stuff, people tell me things, I am not just some dumb guy. Like many times people said ET is dying. I agree. For the most part, however there are still some active servers like FA. Like our dear friend Neustra who is a ND legend and is with us for at least 10 years, left TWC to go into FA. Now he came back and loaded bounch of cr*p how closing ND was a bad decision. Sorry comrade, you were long gone, and if you really cared for ND, why did you leave in the first place. Anyways, I guess merging ND and Beginnera in hope to gain crucial activity was such a bad decision, am I right?

And one other fact about 'Need of Drama". Few days ago I've made a post and wishes everyone a nice vacation, and most importaintly I gave you some motivation for bringing back activity when summer ends. Nobody commented anything, not even a thank you. On the other hand if you look at this thread or this situation, there were at least 10 people active and started commenting. It just shows how internet works, everyone is seeking for either atention or somekind of drama. Generally I like to joke around, but there is a line somewhere. Please, let's keep our channel clean and behave like we are supposed to. We are mostly all adult, are we not?

As one of the leading figures in TWC Clan I would like to apologize to the people who were hurt in this incident, especially to you Moonster. I hope we can avoid this kind of situations in the future. Please PM me if you have any further informations. All those who were banned or kicked will be brought back, unless a team of ALL Supremes says otherwise.

Thank you for reading, I hope we can now calmly use our channel.

Cheers, have a nice day.

[Emblem]

I think most of the people there at the time were in TWC at some point (like me). Besides that the only reason people like me got pulled in is because of the 2 @everyone's talking about how no one is allowed to disagree.

I don't chat in TWC discord that often these days but then i get pinged twice about not being allowed to disagree so i start to read into what happened and realize that there didn't seem to be anything wrong with what nuestra said right before he got banned.

I can honestly say that i was innocent until i said the message that got me banned. I said it because i was annoyed at how things were handled, annoyed that my earlier message got deleted without being informed or without a good reason imo and annoyed that the reply i got was basically "deal with it".

[Mystik]

Hey guys,

before jumping to any conclusions, let me just say that I will try to remain objective. I don't have anything against anybody.

First of all, thank you Moonster for making this thread. We will try to make the best of it and perhaps even learn something from it.

So, I happen to read some of the conversation on Discord, but not all of it. As far as I know it started something in relation of "TWC making a bad decision" followed by a wave of criticism and disagreement. Is that correct? I don't want to point any fingers towards anybody, nor I will search someone to blame.

Yes, Raven made some actions which he thought were best for the given situation. However, not everyone agreed with those actions, and the "drama" (as you guys like to call it) happened. Of course not every decision is a good decision, but Raven did what he did. Like Cross stated, everyone makes mistakes. Let's say that Raven's decisions were wrong, but who are you to question his decisions? Most of the guys present are not and were never even in TWC. I see some of you making useless and provocative posts on a daily basis. You guys are on our TWC Clan discord just to stir "shit", and searching for target to go after. In this case you guys went for Raven.

Please don't tell me you're innocent and that I am supporting Raven's bad decisions. I see stuff, people tell me things, I am not just some dumb guy. Like many times people said ET is dying. I agree. For the most part, however there are still some active servers like FA. Like our dear friend Neustra who is a ND legend and is with us for at least 10 years, left TWC to go into FA. Now he came back and loaded bounch of cr*p how closing ND was a bad decision. Sorry comrade, you were long gone, and if you really cared for ND, why did you leave in the first place. Anyways, I guess merging ND and Beginnera in hope to gain crucial activity was such a bad decision, am I right?

And one other fact about 'Need of Drama". Few days ago I've made a post and wishes everyone a nice vacation, and most importaintly I gave you some motivation for bringing back activity when summer ends. Nobody commented anything, not even a thank you. On the other hand if you look at this thread or this situation, there were at least 10 people active and started commenting. It just shows how internet works, everyone is seeking for either atention or somekind of drama. Generally I like to joke around, but there is a line somewhere. Please, let's keep our channel clean and behave like we are supposed to. We are mostly all adult, are we not?

As one of the leading figures in TWC Clan I would like to apologize to the people who were hurt in this incident, especially to you Moonster. I hope we can avoid this kind of situations in the future. Please PM me if you have any further informations. All those who were banned or kicked will be brought back, unless a team of ALL Supremes says otherwise.

Thank you for reading, I hope we can now calmly use our channel.

Cheers, have a nice day.

Not sure if you wrote this up before or after I posted my wall, but how it started is both available in my post and in the Discord chat history. It began with a discussion on activity with valkk's provocative message. In my opinion there were good points from many people, too bad it got derailed.

I really don't understand how it's relevant that "most of you are not and never were in TWC". Who are you referring to, Moon? Sure. But anyone else in that convo? There are members, ex-members and regular guests that have played in TWC servers FOR A DECADE taking part in the discussion, how is their opinion any less relevant?

I can only speak for myself, but I do like the drama, and I have never denied or even tried to deny that. That doesn't change the facts though, or the points that I make. I very rarely pull hot takes up my ass and provide opinions I don't actually agree with. I might insert them in spots designed to make a joke or maybe twist someone's nipples a bit in the wrong way. But I do try to be open about my own flaws as well, when I can. I welcome criticism about my actions or behavior, but expect others to take it in return too.

If it wasn't clear from my wall of text, I do not think Nuestra should be unbanned. His ban in general is justified, maybe not just for what he was actually banned for. He is an annoying idiot that provides no value to anything, but even he should be entitled to his shit opinions.

The point we are making here is not that LOOK RAVEN MADE BAD BAN, but that he keeps saying that guests and normal members are not allowed to criticize moderation decisions, which should not be the case in my opinion.

I am able to remain objective in this, as I very much agree with Nuestra being banned, but I don't agree with people not being allowed to discuss the ban or other moderation decisions.

PS. Raven kept saying that "the supremes" agreed on this but not a single other supreme or higher said anything in Discord. Surely you discussed in your secret channels, but it helps to see those others higher ups then voice it publicly as well, as you have done in your post.
Also a point was made that "this discussion is not for Discord" and should instead be made into a complaint on the forum. But why? Discord is an easier and faster way of communication, and the ban itself was related to Discord.

---

I think most of the people there at the time were in TWC at some point (like me). Besides that the only reason people like me got pulled in is because of the 2 @everyone's talking about how no one is allowed to disagree.

I don't chat in TWC discord that often these days but then i get pinged twice about not being allowed to disagree so i start to read into what happened and realize that there didn't seem to be anything wrong with what nuestra said right before he got banned.

I can honestly say that i was innocent until i said the message that got me banned. I said it because i was annoyed at how things were handled, annoyed that my earlier message got deleted without being informed or without a good reason imo and annoyed that the reply i got was basically "deal with it".

Yeah one of the pings was the Raven ping, and then Narko did one or two useless @everyone pings, so I don't blame people who usually don't chat looking at the server to see what's going on...